Islam Is A Call For Peace

Ms Benazir Bhutto Interview to ‘The NewsPaper Today’
August 27, 2001

Do you think you can dethrone Pervez Musharraf?

Many generals came and were dethroned – Yahya Khan, Zia-ul-Haq, Ayub Khan. Today, Musharraf saheb is in power. But ultimately Pakistan as envisioned by Mohammed Ali Jinnah will succeed, which is democratic Pakistan, a Pakistan in which the poor will be treated with respect.

From its very birth, democracy in Pakistan has been discarded and generals been successful. What is the reason for this? Doesn’t this show that you the politicians have no credibility?

Is it a question of credibility or of a consensus which did not evolve? In India there are opposing groups, there are serious differences among political leaders but all the political groups and some well-meaning people do agree that India should have democracy, an independent election commission, free judiciary and a free press. But it is the opposite in Pakistan. For example, when my government was removed undemocratically, no one raised a voice to say the president should not have such powers.

There have been two types of regimes there. One is elected occasionally. The other is the ISI and the Army establishment, which is more powerful than the elected representatives. Is this true?

Yes, we have two regimes. One which is visible and the other which is not. This has been our misfortune and has caused much damage to our country because the political interests of the invisible regime have been opposed to those of the people. Hence Pakistan also broke up. Now it is said that there should be a legal structure for these invisible forces so that they act within the limits of law and refrain from unlawful activities.

That seems impossible. Nawaz Sharif, who had a two-thirds majority and tried to control this invisible regime, was dismissed.

This is one perception but the other perception is that Sharif was himself the product of the invisible regime. So the majority which he had was not of the people but of the invisible regime. If a group of democratic parties gets a majority then I think changes can be brought in the structure so that there is revolution in the country.

Do you think politics of the gun overrules the politics of votes in Pakistan?

It seems so and it has been so until now. But we are not ready to bow before arms and are fighting to strengthen the politics of vote. This is not easy but if one has conviction and commitment, as the PPP and its supporters have for democracy, then we have to fight.

There is a different type of jehad being practised there, in which arms are being used in the name of religion. Cross-border killings are permitted. Do you support this?

There are many issues in Pakistan. One is lack of democracy. Then, religious groups have been given a free hand. And after the Afghan jehad, a new jehad has started. When I say jehad, I mean a political movement. In the Islamic world there are some groups which say that they have to resort to arms to rule over the world. On the other hand there also are those who say that the meaning of Mussalman is that you to your own religion and I to my own, a policy of coexistence.

What do you believe in?

I believe that Islam is a call for peace, for tolerance.

Do you support the border intrusions in the name of Islam?

The movement for Kashmir is of two types. One is a political movement which is under the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC). We support them. The other is of Lashkar-e-Toiba and armed groups which cropped up after our regime. We oppose them.

Do you think that there is any solution in the wake of what is going on in Kashmir?

No solution has come up in the past 50 years and it will not come up in the coming 50 years if the people of India, Pakistan and Kashmir follow the path they are following. India calls Kashmir is an integral part, Pakistan speaks of self-determination.

To whom?

To the people of Kashmir.

Which Kashmir? To both of them or to one of them?

Pakistan’s intention is that one Kashmir should be given this right. But if you people exert pressure then both Kashmirs can be included.

Do you agree that both Kashmirs should vote and decide whether they want to live with India or Pakistan?

If India proposes this, Pakistan will definitely agree.

But the Simla Agreement…

I think you people are not ready for this.

In the Simla Agreement it was decided that we should respect the LoC for the time being.

That is the Indian interpretation. Pakistan’s view is that it will be resolved bilaterally. If it fails we will go to the UN.

The UN is not going to interfere in this issue. Can there be an agreement on the LoC?

I think India wants that the LoC should be made the international border. And Pakistan wants to give political support to insurgency so that referendum is done there. There can be no agreement in the wake of these opposing views. We should acknowledge that there are differing viewpoints. But we should build consensus for a peaceful, politically negotiated settlement. One should undertake confidence building for that.

This has been tried so many times – the Simla Agreement, Vajpayee’s bus journey, your talk with Rajiv Gandhi, the contents of which are still secret.

We had talked about Siachen and East Punjab. At that time East Punjab was a big problem for your people.

It is the perception in India that you people were supporting, arming and financing them.

There are perceptions. There is a perception that you people were doing the same in Karachi, only God knows who was doing what. Maybe we were doing that but we should now talk about whatever differences we have. These should be solved politically. We should build confidence for a safe and open border. Then the new generation will distance itself from bloodshed and hatred.

Vajpayee went by bus but what did he get? Kargil, guns…

It was wrong. But he was dealing with an undemocratic leadership.

But that was the elected leadership.

How? People had boycotted the 1997 elections. Farooque Leghari established a biased regime and said, ‘I will not allow Benazir to come back’. So we said that the election was a farce and boycotted it. Only 16 per cent people voted. But the Election Commission of Pakistan claimed that 50 per cent had voted. All your newspapers said rightly that 16 per cent voted.

It seems that votes are polled somewhere else in your country.

Yes, it is so. There are all sorts of rigging. So there was an insecure leadership. It wanted to please India, please the world, please the army. In Lahore Vajpayee was being felicitated and the army was being told to take positions. And I know that General Musharraf has said recently that he would go anywhere and talk to India. I think if a military ruler says he is ready to talk then you can understand that our people really want peace.

It seems that you have too much faith in Musharraf.

I have differences with him. He has said that he will use the Army against me and will stop me.

You have said that when you were dismissed the first time, Osama Bin Laden was behind the move. He spent money. How much did he spend?

Yes, during Zia-ul-Haq’s rule, the Afghan jehad was started in Pakistan. Madarsas were established and the children of the poor were recruited and promised clothes etc. In 1989, there was no confidence vote against me. Bin Laden gave $10 million to remove my government.

You were against that?

Certainly. Members of the PPP are not allowed to take to arms. Then why should the mullahs be permitted? This dual law is against the Constitution.

Did you compromise so that continuity is ensured?

Certainly. I did try.

You helped in the election of the president so that Ghulam Ishaque Khan returned…

This is wrong. I had a split mandate. Two provinces were with Sharif who was in the Opposition, two provinces were with us. The National Assembly was with us and the senate with them. So we had no votes. We accepted Ishaque due to compulsions. If we had votes, we would have had our own man. Like the case of Leghari. It is another thing that he changed after occupying the chair.

Is it true that America plays an important role in your country?

America has given too much money – $4.5 billion-and F-16s. So obviously it has a leverage.

So you’ve put democracy on lease for money?

When did we want to put democracy on a lease? There was martial law. There were strategic concerns. You ask those who did that.

It is a perception that America dictates your politics…

Obviously. America is a super power. It has too much clout. We want their diplomatic support because if we go to the UN, we have support. In the past we were in the American bloc or the free world bloc. You were closer to the Soviets. Now you are opening up your markets. Ten years hence, Insha Allah, we will talk.

In your first term as Prime Minister, you were progressive, you wanted change. In your second term, you wanted to earn wealth. It is a perception that you made billions and built palaces. Is this true?

This is all propaganda. During my first term, Islam, not in religious terms, was used against me. When that failed, the bogey of corruption was raised. But the reality is that India copied my energy policy and software policy. Recently, a tape has surfaced in which a trial judge asks the regime what punishment should be inflicted upon “madam”.

Does that mean the judiciary was bought?

There are many good men in the judiciary.

What about your properties that have been listed?

What properties? What have they listed? I have challenged them. I am entitled to have properties. What law is there against it? It is against illegal properties.

It seems Musharraf is soft towards you.

They have kept my husband in jail and you think so?

It wasn’t Musharraf but Sharif…

You know, the whole thing is run by Zia’s men.

Have you made a compromise with the General?

No. I do not have to make compromises with him. I have deputed the vice-chairman of the party and said that if there are talks he should join in. But dialogues have led us nowhere. Because they don’t want the return of Benazir. They want to use the army against me.

I, however, do not have personal problems with Musharraf. He was my DGMO. I do have personal problems with Sharif.

If you have to choose between the two…

I will any day choose Musharraf.

Is he a better man?

The way Sharif acted, even animals do not act in such a brutal manner.

There is a view, which may be wrong, that Musharraf extradited Sharif and paved the way for you and that if a democratic government is to be set up, a puppet government could be installed through you.

The perception that Sharif was extradited is wrong.

They want to encourage you. Musharraf wants a democratic face and where will they find a better one than yours?

I am hearing it from you. If they want such a face, they have not come to me. And let me tell you, I am not only a democratic face. I am a person with her own base.

If they keep women in wraps and confined within four walls, how will you fight?

This is a challenge. In my life, I have accepted challenges. I want change in my country, in this region.

What do you think of the peace initiatives by India under Vajpayee? He took three initiatives…

After Rajiv, Vajpayee is the first leader with farsightedness. What he did with leaders of the All Party Hurriyat Conference was right. I welcomed that. He allowed them to go out for treatment. He declared a cease-fire, told them that he was ready for unilateral talks. I think he has taken courageous steps. This is a window of opportunity for Pakistan which we are missing.

What would you have done if you were at the helm?

I think if a positive step is taken, a second positive step should also follow.

Why should Indo-Pak relations hinge on Kashmir? Why aren’t they being delinked?

You want that I call for a delink? Then your people will be happy and my people angry.

Politics is overshadowing relations.

A trend has set in in which accepting the other’s view is considered wrong. Let us respect that any country has a right to its own opinion. Let us agree to disagree. Even if there are some disagreements, there are parameters on which we wish to live – peace, friendship, amity.

Don’t you think that Islamic fundamentalism is standing in the way of a negotiated settlement?

Fundamentalism is our internal problem. The Kashmir issue has two dimensions. One, Kashmiris have a political right. Second, the export of the fundamentalist movement. In my days, the Hurriyat was prominent there. Now Lashkar-e-Toiba has come in. We also have personal reservations about that. But the Kashmir problem does not go away because of Lashkar. We can sit and talk about how to manage this. We understand that violence should end and our countries should live in peace. I am prepared to play my role.

But you can play a role only if you go to Pakistan.

I would like to see people in India also play a role so that Kashmiris also get something.

If you have to choose between family, children and politics, what will you do?

My personal wish is to make somebody the Prime Minister and I run the party so that I give more time to my children. After 10 years they will be in colleges, get married. So this is the time that I can sit with them, help in their homework, give them a life, emotional strength and substance.